I am researching my family history. I have a record of a solider in the 24th Foot Bridge. He ends up being treated at the Royal Hospital for an injury. The record is dated 2nd February 1815 and states 'Injury at Talavera' there are about 8 others with similar injuries from the same place - Talavera. Given that the Battle of Talavera was in 1809, why are these soliders being treated 6 years later in London? Was there subsequent skirmishes in Talavera? Surley it acnnot have taken 6 years to get home??!! Any information would be really welcome. Thanks
top of page
bottom of page
@Lee Rymill Thanks for sharing your research. Joseph is indeed on the roll. “The Military General Service Roll 1793-1814” AT Mullen 1990. Page 221, shown with one bar for Talavera. So definitely issued, and undoubtedly worn with pride, even out of uniform (As veterans still do, me included). Mullen doesn’t mention any sight in an auction. This means it might still exist in the hands of one of your wife’s distant relatives. Or alternatively sold privately, through a small or general sale that escapes the eagle eyes of collectors or sadly tossed away in a house clearance. As it’s solid silver, there is also the chance it ended up at the pawnbrokers or went into the melting pot. If it still exists, it is easy to attribute, his name, rank and regiment is impressed on the edge. I’ll set my son James, who’s a bit of a super sleuth at these things on to it, and see if he can come up with something of it. We will definitely be able to personalise a watercolour we have done. If we send you the image, it shouldn’t cost us anything but a small donation to Autism UK wouldn’t go amiss. I also notice some familiar images, if you want to know more about the medical aspects of Joseph’s amputation I cannot recommend @mickcrumplin ‘s works highly enough.
Hi @Lee Rymill
I've sent this to your email, but I hope you don't mind me sharing what my son James has produced?
If anyone else is interested, he also has Waterloo, Hanoverian Waterloo, Army Gold Medal, CB etc and is currently working on NGSM, Army of India and Willems Orde.
A little bit out of our period, but he also has all the main WW1, WW2 Korea, GSM and CSM and almost every variation of Volunteer/Territorial medals if anyone would like their relative's medal sets commemorating in a print.
We research and do them together, it's a great father/son thing we've shared as he has grown up.
Unbelievable! Thank you so much for this. I will be contacting the University once i catch my breath! I will investigate the Chapman name also. Bravo Sir! One funny aspect of this story is that one of this gentleman's descendants (my wife's grandfather) actually lost his arm during WWII. However it was because he waved out of truck window at someone! There is a photo of him stood next to the Queen mother whilst in a hospital! Strange how history echos.
Hi @Lee Rymill , it seems that although having to “make his mark” Joseph went on to leave an account of Talavera! You can go on to read his story in his own words. In the Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research vol 72 No 291 (Autumn 1994) page 183 Major Accessions to Repositories 1992 Relating to Military History “Jospeh Harwell, Private, 24th Regiment of Foot, account of the Battle of Talavera (Peninsular War) Liddle Collection, Edward Boyle Library, University of Leeds. Their online catalogue misspells him as Barwell. Intriguingly he is mentioned as being held prisoner until 1813. We may have solved the mystery as to why it took so long to get to Chelsea and be discharged, It says you can order this item. Obviously during lockdown in person might be difficult. They do have a form to request digitise but there is a modest charge. Don’t know if they are still in work though. https://explore.library.leeds.ac.uk/special-collections-explore/378522 Incidentally, it was donated by Miss BE Chapman. Ring any family bells? OK 28 years ago, but might give you a clue where the medal went?
Wow, some great responses here. David, I would be grateful for anything you could offer to make my ancestor come 'back to life' as it were. If costs are involved, please let me know.
My Chelsea Pensioner is just one part of an epic saga I am unravelling. He was called Joseph Harwell and lived in Brinklow, Warwickshire (1786-1872) I have attached a pdf of his life story. Please feel free to embellish or correct any aspect of it, and I am fully aware that the images I have used may not be 100% historically accurate! But they will help paint a picture for my family. When I am finished I would like to have a framed picture of Talavera with his record etc in a frame.
Technically he is not 'my' ancestor but my wife's. She doesn't know her Iron Duke from her ironing board, so I am taking this time off work to research it.
@Lee Rymill I just noticed you said he lived into his almost into his 90’s? That strongly suggests he was alive in 1847, so could have applied for and received his Military General Service Medal. What was his name? If you don’t have it, I could look him up in the roll for you? If the medal is no longer in the family, my son is a bit of a collector, so he could try and see if he’s spotted it at auction. He is also a bit of a medal art enthusiast, so could reproduce and personalise a watercolour illustration of his medal for you. If you don’t want to publish his name, you can PM me.
Slightly tangential, but may be helpful for context. The only soldier's account I know of that includes a description of post-war life as an amputee (leg, in this case) on a Chelsea out-pension: https://www.helion.co.uk/military-history-books/narrative-of-the-eventful-life-of-thomas-jackson-militiaman-and-coldstream-sergeant-1803-15.php
Hi Lee. Chelsea hospital (and Kilmainham in Ireland) had two categories of Pensioner. In pensioners were pretty much like we know today, single or widower wearing the uniform and living on site. Far more common were out pensioners, in receipt of a daily pension allowance, but otherwise free to go about their business. As your man is married and resides in Coventry, this would be his status. Often the pension is merely to be a top up their civilian earnings, whilst for others they were completely reliant upon the pension. As he continues to describe himself as a ‘Chelsea Pensioner’ rather than other trade, it seems he was the latter. These per diem rates were awarded by a board which sat on specific dates at the hospital, the out pensioner then being discharged into the community. There was no index linking though, the rates were fixed for life. The only way to increase it was by being re-assessed and convincing the board that the condition or their circumstances had deteriorated in some way. His change of marital status and the need to provide for a family may have been trigger to do just that. So as Zack has suggested the numbers of those coming together may indeed be one such review board. Unfortunately though it would be highly unlikely that he continued to wear uniform, that was reserved for in pensioners. It’s also worth noting that unlike Waterloo veterans, with their prize money, fund and a bright shiny medal to elicit free drinks with, peninsula veterans had far less recognition. They would have to wait until 1847 for the Military General Service Medal to be established. Was your chap still alive by then? There are several men with single bars for Talavera on the roll. However, it had to be claimed, so even if he was alive he may not have received it.
My descendant in question lived either near to or in the London hospital for some time as a month before his recorded visit (Feb 1815) he married (in London) and then returned to his native Coventry.
Therefore he could have lived at the hospital the whole time after Talavera or perhaps just visited regularly, of regularly enough to live down there for a few years?
Either way, he recovered enough to father four kids and live until he was 89. He is consistently listed on census records as 'Chelsea Pensioner' for the rest of this life. So my next mission is to learn more about them. Would he have wore the Chelsea Pensioner uniform regularly I wonder? Propping up the bar (with is one arm) recanting his tales from Spain? I am looking forward to learning more about this fascinating and much forgotten period in history. The sheer level of detail in some of the battle chronologies, records etc is astonishing and puts our record keeping (today) to shame.
Welcome Lee. Was there perhaps a board that took place around that time to review applications from veterans (ie all the men would have had their applications considered at the same time and been admitted?) It certainly wouldn't have taken 6 years to get back home, and as you say, the fact that several from the same unit with similar wounds were there together suggests that it might be connected with the process. Do forum members know of there was a rule change on admission to the hospital in 1815 which might have caused this?
Don't forget that it was effectively a retirement home.
I may actually have an answer myself. The record I am looking at is from the Royal Hospital, Chelsea. I am starting to think that the man in question returned to the hospital several years after the battle for treatment, hence the date difference. What is unusual is the fact that 8 other of his regiment arrive at the hospital on the same day (all with similar limb amputations) Perhaps they were all being checked on at the same time?